At Monday’s meeting, four residents addressed the topic during public comments, with three supporting lethal measures and one opposed.Watching Tuesday's meeting, I also noticed that three residents talked about killing deer, even though John Bendel asked us "for the good of the community, we must try to reset the dialogue" while Susan Morgans referred to it as a "cooling off period." The one resident who spoke in opposition had not signed up to speak during Citizen Comments. Before the meeting had started, Susan Morgans saw that Barbara Sollenberger had not signed up and urged her to sign the sheet. Barbara declined. It wasn't until after she heard the three residents supporting lethal measures did Barbara decide to bring up her analysis of population density of Mt. Lebanon's contiguous communities and inquire about the status of the sterilization application. Her population density statistics, based on the 2010 Census, should be printed on T-shirts!
Again, Mt. Lebanon has 5468 people/sq. mile.
The killing fields:
Upper St. Clair has 1958.5 people/sq. mile.
Bethel has 2768.7 people/sq. mile.
Communities opposed to lethal methods:
Castle Shannon 5207.3 people/sq. mile.
Dormont 11,306.6 people/sq. mile.
Baldwin Township 3984 people/sq. mile.
Scott Township has 4277.4 people/sq. mile.
Just an FYI Fox Chapel has 690 people/sq. mile and they kill deer. Barbara said you could shoot charging rhinos in Fox Chapel because their density is so low.
If Peters is killing deer, their density comes out to 1077.3 people/sq. mile.
I hope the commissioners seriously consider density when they have their deer management discussion session on June 22. Hastings-on-Hudson, NY Mayor Peter Swiderski was quoted as saying, "You can’t walk around on quarter-acre zoning with a crossbow.” An FYI, a quarter acre property is 10,912.5 square feet. My lot is 5500 square feet.
50 comments:
I am going to cross post a couple of comments that came through before this post went up.
Elaine
First comment cross posted:
I would like to know more about the June 22 commission meeting. In particular, will that meeting be before or after the commission invites the anti-kill stakeholders (and there are many) to the table?
I am sure that the anti-kill faction, or at least one or two representatives, will show up for a discussion with the commissioners.
Also, will there be a 50/50 raffle at the June meeting?
May 16, 2015 at 6:16 PM
Second comment cross posted:
Anonymous said...
Elaine--- Would you consider starting a separate thread for the anti-kill Mt. Lebanon residents (and necessarily those opposed to them or without opinion) to share ideas about the June 22 commission deer meeting and the events leading up to it?
Hopefully, the anti-kill folks will take the high road in the discussion, in order to promote their group's interest in being a primary force in the building of a civilized, enlightened, evolved and united Mt. Lebanon.
Those anti-kill residents who keeps the focus only on constructive ideas and comments (no trash talk) will win brand new Kitchen-Aid hand mixers.
Thanks, Elaine, for considering this request.
May 16, 2015 at 6:53 PM
Done, 6:53 PM! Sorry, no Kitchen-Aid hand mixers though. ;)
Elaine
Wait a second, no hand-mixers? Okay, it's your blog. Thank you, Elaine.
That said, I feel that it is the best interest of Mt. Lebanon for the commissioners to take a very hard look at the density issue.
It's something that the anti-kill group would like to place on the table at the stakeholders' meeting.
No bullets may be fired when the density of the community is at issue.
Perhaps Mayor Swiderski and some Hudson-on-Hastings residents would agree to a conference call with our commissioners and a couple anti-kill representatives.
Oh, speaking of conference calls, stay tuned.
I will be back after a word from our sponsors.
C'mon, anti-kill residents, let back Elaine about those t-shirts highlighting the major density issue that the pro-kill commission seem to not care about. (Maybe I am wrong and the commissioners have come to an agreement that weapons cannot be shot in Mt. Lebo, due to its high density.)
Anti-Kill group: Who wants to design/write the text for the t-shirts?
Maybe we can give the winner a hand-mixer. Not sure, though.
The Municipal Underground reports that, later this month, the Mt. Lebo commissioners will participate in a conference call with non-lethal experts. The Humane Society has facilitated this opportunity for our commissioners to learn that there is a civilized "deer management" alternative to firing guns and shooting arrows.
sorry i can't set this up (i literally don't know how) but "someone" might:
set up a "take the pledge" website in which residents can pledge to maintain a deer friendly yard that promotes coexistence with deer. residents who take the pledge can get a small yard sign (smaller than the political signs) that they can place in their yard/garden. the website can include tips/links/resources about deer friendly gardening,non-lethal deer management methods, etc. the yard signs can be free (if possible with donations) or the pledge can pay some small fee and get it mailed to them or delivered by a resident.
the social aspect to the pledge could cultivate a more deer friendly atmosphere within mt lebanon. it's important that people realize through viewing the website that without such a community wide and collaborative effort, the divisiveness in mt lebanon will continue with the addition of risk for serious harm to residents with the use of sharpshooters.
when a person signs to take the pledge, the website should offer the chance to tweet/facebook link/email to other friends or family who could take the pledge.
for people who don't have a yard, their pledge could be to support deer friendly policies within their community and maybe they could have a car magnet instead of a yard sign.
word choices are all flexible. just wanted to offer the idea of a pledge based drive that uses social media and yard signs
again, sorry I have no clue how to set up all of this but i don't think it's helpful to rip on people who offer suggestions with the response of "why don't you do it". if that's the attitude, then ideas won't be shared. do u want to cultivate ideas or hammer people?
11:27---Perhaps the pledge could be a Compact (a/k/a Agreement) for Coexistence.
Signing the Compact would mean that we agree to coexist with all of those around us. People, deer, squirrels, etc.
I love your idea. IMO, it is a clear path to freedom from constant divisiveness. Who wants to fight all the time?
Yours is the kind of noble idea that we seek--- for our future and the future of our children.
Thank you for taking the high road. Let's keep it going.
We could set up a Twitter account for the Mt. Lebanon Compact for Coexistence.
I don't know how, either, but I think Twitter is rather simple to use and comments are succinct and get to the point (at least that is one way to use Twitter.).
When we ask someone to "sign" the Compact for Coexistence, how can they refuse?
How can anyone say no?
All we are saying is give peace a chance.
11:27,
If anyone deserves a hand-mixer, it is you.
Does anyone know if there has been a Commission vote to plant deer resistant flowers and plants in the 30 public flower islands, and the 22 public planting areas? I'm assuming that planting is beginning right now. What is the status of these, up to this point, 52 public salad bars for deer?
11:27 PM, I love your idea! I could add a tab on my Lebo Citizens website, which a very kind and generous person paid the renewal fee for me.
11:27 PM, let's talk about this privately.
Elaine
Wounded Deer Incident in Upper St. Clair
This is an example of the kind of incidents that happen in communities that allow bow hunters hunt in their community. I kept the author of this story confidential at her request.
At approximately 6:20 PM, I was driving on McMillan Road when I encountered an injured deer at the side of the road. The animal was down, was thrashing with its front legs, and was foaming at the mouth. It was unable to move its hindquarters, and was in great distress.
Another motorist stopped at the scene shortly after I did. When he approached the deer, he discovered a wound in the deer’s hindquarters, very near the spine. The deer had not been hit by a car, as I originally assumed, but had been the victim of a very poor shot.
When I looked up the hillside above where the deer lay, I saw a hunter, dressed in full camouflage gear, including black face paint! The hunter admitted that he shot the deer. He stated that he was from White Tail Management and that he had permission from the property owner to hunt on this property.
Several things about this incident were disturbing to me:
1. It was very upsetting to witness the cruelty of bow hunting where the animal suffers needlessly. As explained later by the Assistant Police Chief, this is a 2-step process. First the animal is "wounded" and it runs away. Then the hunter tracks the animal, and "dispatches" it.
2. The position of this deer’s wound shows that not all White Tail Management hunters are good shots. The numerous reports of wounded, mutilated deer in Upper St. Clair and other communities attest to this.
[Twenty- two published scientific surveys and studies indicate that the average wounding rate for bow hunting is over 50 percent. More than one out of every two deer shot is never retrieved, but dies a slow tortuous death from blood loss and infection. These wounded deer will be dying in residents yards traumatizing families and their children, and running out into the roads causing accidents. Chief Coleman McDonough promoted his bow hunting program in Mt. Lebanon's Magazine as a "safe, natural and humane harvest".]
3. After this deer had been wounded, it slid down the embankment onto McMillan Road. (I could see the slide marks in the dirt on the hillside.) This created a traffic hazard caused not by the deer, but by the hunter.
4. No one polices the hunting activity. Did this hunter observe the 50-yard rule? Where did the hunter stand when he fired his weapon? Only the hunter and the deer know for sure – the hunter’s not talking, and the deer can’t.
5. Hunting is not appropriate in residential areas and it is unnerving to see armed men in battle fatigues prowling our neighborhoods. Furthermore, who is to know if these men are from White Tail Management or are poachers?
I'm very concerned that my township is succumbing to the wishes of White Tail Management and becoming a private game land for a hunting club. If there is hunting in the parks, residents are being deprived of safe use of those parks. If there is hunting on private property without widespread public knowledge, residents are being put in danger. I do not agree with the argument made frequently by the commissioners, that these hunters are safe. And I do not agree with the argument that just because a species has become inconvenient it is acceptable to kill it.
Another USC Wounding Incident
No wounded deer in my yard so far. But I did come across one last week that was apparently wounded on the Gilfillan property on Orr Road, close to Route 19. It was thrashing about inside the fenced area. I did not actually see a wound, but the poor thing seemed to be paralyzed and was desperately trying to get up on his legs. I think the wound was underneath him on the side that I couldn't see. Anyway, a man was observing all of this and he said that there were hunters up on the property and that he has seen them other times. He even saw them drag a dead deer across the walking trail. He said he was going to go up to talk to them. He said he is also a hunter, but he said he didn't think it
was ok to be hunting in a residential neighborhood. Regretfully, I did not ask his name.
A young woman with a small child also came by. She wanted to show her child the deer. She was unaware that it was hurt until she got close. She said she had moved to USC about six months ago and was completely unaware that hunting was permitted under any circumstances in the township. She was appalled when I told her that hunting was permitted on township and on private property. I did get her name. I reported the incident to my Commissioner.
8:47 AM: Might you be willing to share with the Mt. Lebanon Commissioners and staff your very articulate post of your first-hand experience with this incident of barbaric, needless violence?
I am sorry that you had to witness such a terrible death.
Residential deer hunters with painted faces, wearing full cameo? That's a scene out of "Apocalypse Now."
8:15, Let's hope that some group other than the commissioners has the power to decided what type of flowers to plant at 52 public sites. That may be (or should be) the Parks Advisory Board.
Unfortunately, the commission struggled with the placement (or non-placement) of two planters on public property. Just based on that, maybe flowers should not be on the Commission's agenda. Let some experts or a group of residents decided. Please.
Here is what we will do. If Mt. Lebanon sadly continues is deer hunting in our high-density, once enlightened community, we will find out where. We will plant ourselves in that killing field (no doubt a public park) and have a Play-In or Live-In to underscore the real reason for public parks.
If we can get Bob Dylan and Neil Young on the entertainment schedule, our peaceful assembly will be complete.
More USC Wounded Deer
There was a doe with a large, round, sore looking wound on her side, near the neck area. She had her fawn with her and she just laid in my yard for hours at a time. … I guess she felt my yard was somewhat of a safe haven. After a few weeks, the wound healed and she seemed to be OK. A few days later, a young deer, larger than a fawn but not yet fully grown, had a open wound on his upper rear leg. He limped a bit, but seemed to be able to get around OK. I assume these wounds came from the same hunter as the other incident, as that property is within seven or eight hundred feet from mine. Even telling you about these incidents gives me a tremendous feeling of sadness.
This June discussion on deer management is nothing but a total charade. Why are there new deer discussions planned for June? The old deer discussions have never stopped. We've had nothing but deer discussions for the last 8 months. Everyone is sick of deer discussions. What is there new to discuss?
Why is "deer mgt" one of the four major goals of the Commission? Deer mgt. is not a major issue for the majority of 33,137 residents. The handful of pro-kill biddies got the Commission to hold a special Town Hall Meeting on Deer Management on July 9, 2012, and only 13 residents attended to complain about deer eating their tulips. This is a case of the tail wagging the dog, and a solution looking for a problem.
IMO, the anti-cull residents should boycott these discussions. Why participate in a charade? Instead, we should start organizing protests for June and the fall deer killing program. Our only power, until we remove the majority of pro-kill Commissioners, is too keep Mt. Lebanon in the headline news and give this Commission bad publicity.
We need to organize a political voting bloc, and focus on finding candidates to run against the pro-kill Commissioners in the upcoming elections.
I don't know how "write-in" candidates work. Is it too late to get write-in candidates for the general election in Ward 1 and 3?
In addition, I think buying a LEBO CITIZENS sign to hang in the ball park is a waste of time and money, and money that could be much better spent marketing Elaine's blog in The Almanac newspaper. If we could get a few thousand more residents reading the Real Lebo News - LEBO CITIZENS - this blog could become an excellent educational resource for the voting public.
Remember, the Commission uses Mt. Lebo Magazine as their main propaganda tool to get resident buy-in for their deer killing program and other programs. We need an alternative real news source for the Mt. Lebanon public to learn the truth, and so why we need to get LEBO CITIZENS marketed to all 33,137 residents. Whoever controls the media, controls perception and opinion, and the Commission, using our tax dollars, sends out their shinny propaganda tool to every household in Mt. Lebanon. We need to provide an alternative news source.
Gang of Wild Deer Mug Mt. Lebanon Gardener and Steal her Tulips
Incredible footage below!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RceLgztamoY
Not only does the Commission and Admin. have the Mt. Lebanon Magazine as a propaganda tool that is delivered to every home in Mt. Lebanon, they also have the Post-Gazette's pro-hunting columnist John Hayes, as their spoon fed propaganda tool. That blowhard has nothing better to do than to create controversy to boost his column reads and comments. That's why it's critically important to get LEBO CITIZENS' blog out to the LEBO public to give residents access to the real news and facts.
May 17, 2015 at 10:58 AM
I agree, I'd rather see a deer in my back yard than a hunter dressed in camo and black face and carrying a lethal weapon. Are these Commissioners insane or what?
To those who have posted comments today about dead/wounded deer, at once it deeply saddens and enlightens me.
Growing up in Pittsburgh, everybody either hunted or knew someone who did. I knew hunters.
My recollection is that PA Game Lands are open to certain types of hunts on very specific dates.
Bow season, I believe is finished before doe season, when the fire power comes out. Doe season begins late Thanksgiving weekend.
This is the month of May. What? Is it open game season in Upper St. Clair? This is going on in Gilfillan Farm, across Orr Road from Westminster Nursery School and Day Care Center.
Keep in mind, too, that does are very pregnant now, about to give birth within a couple weeks. I guess those does are fair game, as well.
My family and I have been talking about taking one of our usual spring walks on that Trail. Not any more.
It sounds like hunters are allowed to do in our highly populated neighborhoods what they could NOT legally do on Pennsylvania State Game Lands.
Back to 8:38's comment: Anything else you can tell us about that May conference call about non-lethal methods?
2:33--Please see first couple comments on this thread. The anti-kill people on this blog are asking that everyone who comments takes the high road. No shots at commissioners or at pro-kill people. That will get us nowhere. So will additional protests.
IMO, it's time for anti-kill residents to sit down at the table with the Commissioners.
I'm with you that the Commission should not even have deer as a topic on its agenda. Let it be. But, we have already heard rumblings of rifles loading for the next .....whatever it is.
For all who are interested in the fate of Mt. Lebanon's deer population, I beg you to read:
A Kinder, Gentler Way to Thin the Deer Herd
BY LISA W. FODERARO
Hastings-on-Hudson hopes to become the first suburb in the United States to control the deer population through contraception.
Or, copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://nyti.ms/14wpw1N
2:33, I respectfully disagree and think that the news outlets will NOT continue to keep protests about deer-killing in the news.
It's not news.
Anti-kill: Let's finish our comprehensive plan and sit down with the commissioners and discuss the plan. We'll set a mutually agreeable date. Go or don't go to the June meeting.
The municipality of Mt. Lebanon and its Commissioners are already infamous in the eyes of potential Lebo homebuyers. I don't think that prolonged protesting will send the commissioners to a lower level of public trust. I don't know if it there is a lower level.
We are looking for solutions to the divisiveness in Mt. Lebanon and the pro-violent culture that is at the core of the unnecessary and irrational deer killing.
I agree 4:31, the media tires pretty quickly of old news.
The world doesn't revolve around Mt. Lebanon and outside of it people are already grumbling about being sick of the MTL deer issue.
There is only one way to put an end to the divisiveness and that is together rid of elected officials that perpetuate.
Bendel said he wanted to put it behind us, he's running for re-election. Have you seen one initiative by the Commission to bring people to bring people together?
He needs to go.
Tufts University from Boston will be on of the two non-lethal experts on the conference call with the Commissioners later this month.
You may read more about the non-lethal program at Tufts in the New York Times article mentioned above, "A Kinder, Gentler Way to Trim the Deer Herd."
8:47, I am so very upset by what happened to that poor deer in Upper St. Clair! We can't let this happen in Mt. Lebanon. I wish we could stop this everywhere! But, let's all do everything we can to prevent this cruelty in Mt. Lebanon!
One thing we can all easily do right now is to share this horrific incident with everyone through social media. And, of course, share Elaine's blog.
Thank you so much, 8:47 for sharing, and thank you so much, Elaine, for making these discussions possible.
May 17, 2015 at 4:31 PM
4:31 PM, with all due respect, I don't think that you truly understand the situation, the players, or the history here. This is a rigged and done deal. Bendel, Brumfield, and Silverman are already fully committed to a deer killing program. Coleen Vuono was the pro-kill candidate selected to serve out Linfante's term, and assure the Commission's pro-kill vote. I have no idea where Kelly Fraasch stands; i.e. she seems to blow in the wind, and has voted for a cull in the past. This is a done deal. We can either be pawns in this scam, or recognize it for what it is, and boycott and protest it. I disagree with you on the protest. If we protest, the media will come.
Please don't get me wrong, I wish you were right, and a rational meeting would make a difference - It won't. The die is cast.
4:31----If our planning and discussion do not work, we'll protest--- as a last resort.
We've protested to no avail. Let's try something different.
Oh, one more thing. This isn't my first rodeo. I know exactly what is going on behind the scenes. We have five pro-kill commissioners.
Let's deal with it.
This is 5 PM. I meant to write that Tufts...... will be ONE of....
Sorry.
4:31 pm I know this is a counterintuitive advice, but it's best not to give the commissioners a second thought until the end. Form your team-based plans as if they were for any divided town, gather momentum, and succeed. The commissioners will stand in your way if you involve them. #beenthere
4:57--No, I have not seen any efforts on the part of the commission to bring people together, stop the violence, and unite Mt. Lebanon.
So, the anti-kill residents will invite the commissioners to a meeting soon in order to discuss those very issues. We must first complete our comprehensive plan.
5:55---I get what you're saying.
I must admit that I am now hoping that the commissioners and cronies are reading about our plans. (At first, I wanted to keep it a secret. That's no fun.)
Mt. Lebanon pays a professional landscaper at a cost of around $21,000 a year to maintain 30 public flowerbeds. They have an adoption program for the other 22 planting areas, they say because of budgetary concerns, that resident volunteers manage. Of course, no problem finding 75K to slaughter deer, but no money to manage these 22 planting areas. This adds up to 52 deer salad bars throughout the community.
As I understand, local gardeners Nancy Smith and Janice Seigle, who are part of the radical pro-kill group, helps advise the landscaper and volunteers on the plant selection and design, etc.
There is absolutely NO REASON why the Commission has not mandated that these 52 public flower islands and gardens implement a deer-resistant gardening strategy RIGHT NOW!
If Nancy Smith and Janice Seigle are obsticals to Mt. Lebanon reducing the food attractants that draw deer into the community causing car-deer collisions and deer-human conflicts, then their efforts should be replaced by the professional landscaper or other gardeners and volunteers that would be more than happy to help. Maybe Sandy Baker or Jessica Walliser, a regional garden expert, could step up to the task.
Either lead, follow, or get the f**k out of the way.
It's a gross misperception that this is a major divisive issue in Mt. Lebanon. This isn't even an issue for the overwhelming majority of the 33,137 residents in Mt. Lebanon. This is the tail wagging the dog. This is only an issue for a handful of crazy obsessed deer haters and gardeners. And there is no bringing them around to a consensus solution to their deer "problem". They refuse to plant deer resistant flowers, and they are not interested in deer contraception or sterilization. They want all the deer slaughtered, even if they can't achieve that objective. If a deer killing contractor kills half of the deer, the other half would still eat their flowers. But they don't care. They just want to kill deer regardless of how illogical and ineffective it is. So it's naive to think that any kind of consensus can be negotiated with these people. The only way to stop this insanity is to remove the pro-kill Commissioners and elect Commissioners willing to implement safe and effective non-lethal solutions.
7:58---Would you be so kind to reach out to the Parks Advisory Board--- maybe contact Ron Block of Chris Phillips---- and ask them to address this issue?
Remember, please, this thread is promoting a civilized, evolved, united Mt. Lebanon.
Let's keep the f**k out of the discussion. Thank you.
Nobody suggested negotiating with the pro-kill group. And, even if Bender were to lose this election, we are still facing a majority of pro-kill commissioners.
I don't know about you, but I am not willing to wait until the political landscape changes to begin a dialog with commissioners. How many deer might die while waiting until all the stars are lined up just right?
Sorry. My computer changes Bendel to Bender all the time.
Slightly off topic but is there a link to which beds are cared for by the muni and which aren't? The municipality owns ALL of the flower beds. On what basis is it ok to care for some and not others?
7:58, no problem finding $875,000 for artificial turf either!
It is sad that any of us have to live here, amidst a violent culture.
Please keep in mind that the prokill women want to see a killing in the fall, during this commission's term. The commission replaced one prokill with another prokill, just like Bendel promised in the March 25 Almanac article. "Bendel said the township will begin looking for an interim replacement for Linfante, who is in favor of deer culling."
You can keep hoping to remove the prokill commissioners. "That ain't gonna happen."
I am working on an online petition for Mt. Lebanon residents to sign, only because I was asked to do it. I have no faith in another petition, but the link will be coming shortly.
We do have some other plans in the works. More to come.
Elaine
8:32 the power is in your relationships with other residents not with the commissioners. When they see your organized, committed, relentless and aligned group, they will concede. U need the group and build now. Plan a gathering... Invite everyone u know and entire neighborhoods. Use flyers, posters...get the word out. No one wants to go through what we experienced with the corrals and mtlebo will hardly be better with sharpshooters.
8:41--Thank you for your support. We DO have the power. And, we will flex our muscles in different ways and at various times.
Timing is everything.
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